I would suggest getting a manual s.l.r. If you do go with an auto focus get one that allows you to select between manual or auto focus.

A good manual camera will teach you how to focus, how to use the appeture and shutter speeds to get the correct exposure.

Good luck with your purchase.A good camera will make a life time of memories to keep and share.

I remember when I was there. I first read all I could find to understand the way exsposure works. Then i found a manual 35mm SLR. They are cheap used. I used a Minolta X370 with a 50 1.7MD lens. Great camera. A little automation with Aperature priority, but still had the abitilty to have full manual control. Check KEH prices on used ones. Mnaual focus and manual settinging will teach you many lessons, but manual cameras produce some of the best results of any cameras I have used. Pentax K1000 is another one. Canon AE-1 is a nice camera. All inexspensive to start with. Many will tell you to buy a Zoom lens, but I would have to say a normal lens like a 50mm or 35mm is nice to start with. Good luck Monte johnson.

A used Pentax zx 5n is good camera to consider... it provides all manual controls including the old style speed and aperture settings... I use mine on all manual with old manual lenses... but you have the flexability to use it on all automatic with auto lenses.

I have used for years, since the early 1980's, the Minolta X-700 of which I still own two cameras. I just take them in ever 2 years for cleaning and adjustments if they are needed. I can also strongly recommend the Nikon FM2n and the FE-2. I have had very good experiences with these Nikons and no problems to date. Buy a lense in the 28mm, 50mm ranges and and a zoom lense, something in the 35ish to 135ish range. The 28mm lense can make any manual camera autofucus. Everyone should own a 50mm lense. Zooms are just fun.

Kodak's "Joy of Phoytography" is an excellent primer on cameras and how to use them. Available at the library or for sale, it will give you good insight into the hobby.

Everyone has given good advice, yes to a manual camera for reasons already stated, yes to reading everything you can get your hands on. Two other things that will help you navigate through all the info: 1. contact someone in a camera club and/or go to one of their meetings, you may find their expertise invaluable; 2. if you are near a college that has a photography course, talk to the instructor about a camera, and possibly taking the course. Both of these were suggested to me and was good advise. If available, a photography course will help you learn the reasons why in addition to giving you experience and confidence while avoiding the pitfalls. Take care and enjoy your photography!

If you decide to buy a new AF camera, my advice is to stay away from the bottom rung models: Nikon N65, Canon Rebel, Minolta 5 or 7, etc. Spending a bit more will purchase a lot more durability and reliability if you plan to keep the camera more than a few months.

If you decide to buy a older used camera, AF or manual, please do yourself a favor and purchase one with a good reputation for reliability and construction quality. Pro or high-level amateur 35mm SLRs are not expensive used and will save you tons of grief. Older SLRs that feature pro or serious amateur construction - metal internal parts, bearings instead of bushings in the film transport, high-quality electronics, and metal shutters tend to last much longer. Some examples of better-made, older cameras include:

Canon F1N, T90, EOS Elan
Nikon FM, FM2n, FM3a, F3, F4, N8008s, N90s
Contax 139, RTSII
Pentax MX

Many recommendations on cheaper-quality cameras are made by folks who remember the 'good old days' of their cameras bought new. But most of these cameras AREN'T anywhere near new nowadays, and their problems can show up shortly after arrival. Parts may not be available either. Don't put yourself in the position of haunting the repair forums plaintively asking for how to repair your X-700's multiple electronic failures, or figuring out new ways to lubricate your old AE-1.

I'm not a fan of any of the Minolta MF electronic cameras. Minolta MF cameras had some really cheap capacitors in their X-300/370/570/700 line and these go out after a few years of use, circuit boards are prone to cracking. The X-700 even used PLASTIC for its film rewind lever, considering the use it was to get this was an insane cost-saving measure. Lots of plastic in internals as well. The later Chinese and Malaysian built cameras have had even more problems.

The Canon AE1 is beloved by many because so many bought them, but this is a low-amateur quality camera as well. Most are running bone-dry at this stage of their lives, the 'permanently lubed' shutter is gunked with dried dust and lube, and have begun the 'Canon squeal' with worn parts in mirror linkage and shutter. The circuit boards aren't as reliable as some other cameras either.

Pentax K1000 is one exception to the avoid-amateur trend. Because it is so simple, it is mostly reliable, but it is crude in the extreme insofar as metering and features. The only power off switch is a lens cap! And even this camera could use a could shutter timing and clean-lube-adjust.

I love my Elan IIe, I would never part with it.

You're obviously a beginner with a comment like - "proper camera - not digital".... have a look at digital, results are equal too and can surpass that of traditional cameras.
You'll get imediate results and instead of waiting for that film to develope, you will see the pictures imediately, allowing you to learn at a much faster pace.

"You're obviously a beginner with a comment like - "proper camera - not digital"

Nah, he just wants something that will work for a few years without seizing up, that's why he posted in the '35mm SLR' section. Why are you here, except to troll?

For a beginner a proper camera should be one that will make them think for themselves. Let them solve their own problems through research and testing. You'll learn a lot more that way. When you choose a camera that you have to focus, set the shutter speeds and the apertures settings, set exposure compensation, advance film, rewind film MANULLY using knobs, you'll learn to respect what photography means. Did I forget to say that photography is a neverending study of light control.

You've gotten some good advice here from what I have read. I've bought and read a lot of books on photography, last count was 52. As it was suggested Kodak is a good source also get the Dean Collins tapes on light control. You won't go wrong with these items. Take some classes if they are available in your area, they are a good source of reviewing your work by your peers. Photography is a life long endeavor you will love.

The proper camera is what fits you. What fits your grip, eyesight restrictions (glasses?), camera weight are a few thing you may want to consider. Most of the comments about the camera makes have been good except for one whose name shall remain annoyance aaa I mean anonymous. My Minolta X700's are about 24 years old, have always used a motor drive with them, they are still within a 1/4 f-stop and are working fine. Minolta sold the X700 for about 20 years, try that today. My FM2n and FE-2 are still in fine shape. I don't have defend these cameras to anybody. I have also used 120 format; the ETRS, RB67, and Hasselblad, those are also very fine manual cameras. Most of which can still be bought new or used in a lot of locations just check out Shutterbug magazine. They are more costly to own than 35mm. What you can afford is your business. My advise is to go manual, low budget (used that is) and in a couple of years; after reading, shooting, and printing your visions, then maybe try a digital. There should be a better choice at lower prices. Canon has thrown down the gaunlet with their D5 or was it 5D. Sony and KM should be in full stride and Nikon is kicking butt with their new digitals. Just remember you can use both film and digital once you get a handle on the basic rules of controling light. It does't matter what you use to make an image as long as you make that image and you can take that to the bank. It's getting late - good night. Have fun!

I agree starting with a manual camera. I read a book before i ever used a camera. The book I think was called Basic Photography and the author was Tom Grimes. Really helped for a place to start. Monte Johnson.

"My Minolta X700's are about 24 years old, have always used a motor drive with them, they are still within a 1/4 f-stop and are working fine. Minolta sold the X700 for about 20 years, try that today."

Have to agree to disagree. I wouldn't advise trying an X-700 today, not when a secondhand camera with ballbearing film transport and reliable metal shutter (not affected by humidity, less prone to sticking) can be bought so cheaply.

I think the X-series cameras stuck around for 20 years by virtue of low price. Minolta offshored the cameras and cheapened it (fewer tantalum capacitors, parts/materials from local subcontractors) allowing them to charge less. The electrolytic caps tend to dry out or leak after a few years, if they leak, the circuit board has to be carefully cleaned as well, sometimes replaced. The film advance utilizes bushings and plastic parts, it's the only SLR I know of that used a plastic rewind lever. Plastic gets more brittle as it ages, btw.

According to M. Linn, the China-made versions used a locally subcontracted adhesive to adhere the cloth shutter curtains, resulting in more complaints of detached shutter curtains and sticking in humid conditions. It's interesting to visit a few of the X-700 'enthusiast' sites. Nearly all of them contain extensive links and instructions on how to solder new capacitors into the X-700. But don't believe me, visit a site like mir.com's message board and count the number of "my X-... has fresh batteries but still won't work" messages.

Lets see, you are advising to visit an X700 enthusast site
to see how bad the X700 is. Just one question, if this is such a stinko camera then why is there enthusast sites existing. It has been my experience that these camera sites exist because people enjoy their cameras and like to share information about them, To help orthers with certain problems that may arise through their use. As far as going to the PRO side of used cameras most are worn out that is why they are sold or traded. Yes there are some that are used by the nonpro side and should be a very good buy. In reality most people do not need the metal parts because they aren't shooting a hundred rolls of film a day. I do not know what equipment you have owned, if you have owned the X700 then you are entied to your opinion. I don't knock things unless I have actually used or tried it. All the equipment that I have recommended or advised on is equipment that I have owned and used. Excuse me food on the table.

Thanks Warren,

No one would recomend a camera that was not proven. The X700 has done well for people who I know have used it. I have a X370 that is 25 or more years old. Works like new. Replaced the seal around the door. Minolta is a good choice for a first camera. The cameras used are cheap and the lens are also. Monte Johnson.

I happen to know something about Minolta manual focus SLRs because, yes, I owned one or back in the day, but also worked in a camera repair shop and heard the complaints. At that time, you couldn't give a Minolta away to the techs. I also participate on various forums advising folks who buy seconhand cameras including these X-cameras, they buy them and then can't figure out why they won't work for any length of time. Sometimes folks want to try soldering in new capacitors so I direct them to an enthusiast link with photos showing how it's done. Sometimes this works, sometimes the camera needs repair again. Multiple repairs are not uncommon. With the scarcity of parts like main boards etc. I don't think it's worth the hassle or money or downtime when you can get something reliable in the first place, but that is my opinion. It must be worth something because I don't see you denying the facts about these cameras' construction, only taking cheap shots.

Cameras are a lot like cars in that people get their ego into them. They are just mass produced tools, I think. Some were made better than others, some cheaper in order to undercut and sell lots of cameras. The pricepoint cameras are beginning to show the results of that marketing approach, especially the ones with older cloth shutters and electronic shutter circuits. These models also need more frequent maintenance and cleaning even if they aren't acting up.

Minolta X-cameras, Canon A-series, probably see 25 or 50 broken ones for every malfunctioning Canon F1N or Nikon FM or FE series on the boards these days. And it's the same issues over and over - circuit board, electronic components, worn linkages and shutters. X-370 shutters tend to jump their tracks for some reason, go figure. All of them built to about the same level as a Nikon EM, never were designed to last for years.

BTW, it is not true that the only pro bodies out there are clapped out. Many top of the line cameras are purchased by folks who snap a few shots then put them on the shelf, otherwise there would be very few clean ones out there. But of course you don't have to buy a pro to get a reliable older camera. A very simple mechanical camera with a metal copal-type shutter usually works pretty well. Or something with really high quality electronics and internal parts, like the Nikon FE2. Pentax ME is pretty good although getting older now, Contax 139 is great but lenses pretty expensive for a beginner. When you are talking about things like 20-years old electronics and shutter modules, it does pay to get a camera that used high-quality parts and less maintenance-intensive designs in the first place.

I think the general purpose here is to get started with a manual camera. Not knowing if a person is going to like photograhy makes a difference on what to invest. Nikons like FE2 and F3 are good cameras. It just depends on how much you want to invest. Minoltas are inexpensive to start with. They will not bring much if you have to sell them,but if things do not work out your investment is not too much. If a person really thinks this hobby is for them then I would go with Nikon or Contax. Older Contax cameras should have a lot of parts around and their lens are great. Nikon cameras Like the FE2 or F3HP are durable cameras that will last a long time plus there are a lot of used lens around. Monte Johnson.

Quote:
I'm looking to buy a good 'proper' (i.e. not digital) camera

Digital IS seen as 'proper' photography now and will be increasingly so from now on due to increases in the technology (e.g. the number of pixels, sensitivity of sensor, and so on). Having said that, film is 'proper' too. The only real difference is between manual cameras (slrs, 35mms etc) and mid-range 'consumer' cameras which don't allow as much control over the exposure settings.

Quote:

When you choose a camera that you have to focus, set the shutter speeds and the apertures settings, set exposure compensation, advance film, rewind film MANULLY using knobs, you'll learn to respect what photography means.

I have a Canon EOS 500N which is the same as the Rebel in the US. It has all those things that you mention, although they are adjusted electronically using dials and buttons and an LCD screen rather than knobs. It also has a plastic body rather than metal. I've had it for abt 8 years and it still works perfectly. Is a metal casing really so important? I agree that 2nd hand cameras offer good value for money. But still, my camera works quite well. What is it, in your view, that these bottom rung cameras lack?

1. Last time I checked this was the 35mm SLR forum, not the arena for digital vs. film wars. The question was about beginner film cameras, not digital, and 'proper' was evidently tongue-in-cheek. Shouldn't you take your arguments over to the soapbox board? Or over to Minolta digital, you can reassure the 7D owner with three breakdowns in 10 months. I often wonder where the digital defenders are when I visit repair boards like www.camerarepairforum.com , it's like a ghost town when it comes to offering ideas for repair.

2. "Metal bodies". For some reason, many people who are wholly unfamiliar with internal camera parts seem to confuse durability with reliability, they are two different animals. The advantage of a higher cost pro or serious amateur camera is much more than simply a metal outer shell. Primary causes of camera malfunction do include shock damage, but you know, even a metal shell can't correct poor design or mounting! There is also poor-quality assembly technique (cold-soldering, weak circuit attachment), moisture ingress, continuity failure in overly sensitive or poorly-made electronic parts, or poor quality cost-cutting mechanical components.

3. There's always one or two people who have some bottom-rung camera that managed to last 25 years - aha! Proof the model line is well-built! Hardly. Not even cameras escape the consequences of economics. The more inexpensive the camera, the more impressive the feature set, and the greater the complexity, the cheaper the internal parts are likely to be. Something always has to give. AF cameras are more complex, DSLRS and digicams even more so, and when you build one of those to low quality standards, you can imagine how long they last. For those people who like to spend $$ on the body, then save on the lens, it goes beyond just the camera. An accidental two-foot drop onto soft ground can break many low-end AF zooms - the plastic cams can't take the shock. Compact digicam zooms are even worse.

Well said.

My comments where aimed at a beginning photographer choosing the proper camera. There are many other things to consider as well such as lenses, filters, cords, and flashes. They were intented to help them set up a thought process for photography. Monte Johnson made some good points in his last comment. I truely apologize to the beginning photographer about straying on his subject. There are many cameras out there, whether plastic or metal, that will serve the purpose. I believe that this is only the first step in their photographic journey. What camera system(s) they use will be up to their needs and wants just as mine (ours) have been. Beginners need basics not automation to learn.

Quote:
The more inexpensive the camera, the more impressive the feature set, and the greater the complexity, the cheaper the internal parts are likely to be.

I don't understand this sentence. What do you mean?

All I can say is I've never had any problems with moisture ingress of whatever. Since it has never malfunctioned I have no view on how well constructed the internal parts are. They work - that's all I require of them. It has basics and automation (but so do top end cameras e.g. program mode etc.)

Re: the 'proper' camera remark. I was only trying to be helpful by saying that film and digital are both good quality. Sorry to get your heckles up.

Will the real anonymous please raise their hand!??

The more inexpensive the camera, the more impressive the feature set, and the greater the complexity, the cheaper the internal parts are likely to be.

"I don't understand this sentence. What do you mean?"

I mean the simple laws of economics. When an entry-level camera is sold in a highly competitive price environment, there is only so much left over in the budget after matching or beating the competition in feature set, especially when constantly introducing and re-designing increasingly complex electronically-controlled cameras. Consumers being what they are, features usually win out over longevity. Internal build and parts quality get the shaft - cheap electronics, cheaper parts, and assembly from cheap labor. Hey, as you said, you never open up the camera, neither do most reviewers. It's assumed, probably correctly, that most people will throw the thing away when it dies and buy a new one. Some camera makers used to contract for electronic component availability for 20 years, now, some don't stock parts at all.

Re: Weathersealing of cameras. Used to be that simpler film cameras didn't need much weathersealing. This has gotten a lot more critical with newer designs that are crammed with electronics. See this thread in photo.net, it's by no means the only one:

http://photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=00DYJp

Yes, but the Canon EOS 500N is not overloaded with features. It has the normal features you expect of an SLR. OK, so the program control modes are not good for a 'beginner' because they might stop them learning about exposure. I never used them. And what difference is there changing the f number on the lense or on the camera body electronically? You're still in control of the aperture.

Definitely NOT a Nikon N55. They're cheap, but not very controllable. I bought one and got rid of it within two weeks. Instead I went with a Nikon N80 and it's done everything I could imagine to do with a camera. It's not that expensive and it has a light meter inside the viewfinder to 'recommend' what shutter speed/aperture to use. I haven't had a bad picture in the last 30 rolls of film.

I would have to agree the N80 is a good choice for the first camera. Also the Canan 7NE is good. I would buy which ever one comes with the best deal. If you all ready have a certain brand of lens then that is a factor. Monte Johnson